Based on.....

[DJMc]

Ah, never mind, I see "Noon Snow" is "Mahiru ga Yuki". I agree that it's too similar to "Maddening Shroud" to be a coincidence, although there seem to be a lot of original parts in it too. Now if I can find "Old Piano" I'll compare that one as well... or is that another one you got the name wrong on? 

[DJMc]

Sorry for doubting you, Earl, I see that "Old Piano" just isn't on the US edition of Frou Frou's album. Again, you're right, this is one of the more obvious ripoffs. Wow, two Frou Frou ripoffs on a single album, great  :

[EarltheSneak]

Just some responses to those comments...


Call Me, Call Me- I don't agree with that Googoo Dolls comparison at all either, but I didn't suggest that one. That's interesting about the Rolling Stones connection, can't believe I never heard the song the strings part is from. Do you know which one it is?

Mushroom Hunting- That one's so bizarre. You'd think he (or they, I think DJ Food is 2 people) must have been aware of Mushroom Hunting. But it's too bad there's no credit for them in the Bebop OST 3 and it's presented as an original Kanno composition.

Yo Pumpkin Head- Yeah, it's specifically the Lou Bega remix/cover to which Pumpkin Head bears similarities. Not for the melody, which is indeed different, but for the beat and synth parts. It's not a damning rip off or anything, but I think Kanno had definitely heard the song. I didn't want to suggest with the list I posted that all those songs were "ripped off" by Kanno. A few are egregious rips, but in most cases, there's a borrowing of certain melodic, rhythmic or tonal elements that are clearly linkable to the earlier songs, but fitted into new, original song structures. It's just the few outrageous rips that really sour me. 

Ask DNA- One day, I will learn the joys of proof reading. Devil's Haircut, what's wrong with me. What I meant of course was "Where It's At", also from Odelay, which has an identical keyboard and rhythm riff to Ask DNA. (And yeah, there's a similar riff in the Wondermints song) That's what I get for not double-checking.
Yeah, isn't "Listen" a weird one? No dispute that that came out well after Nowhere and Everywhere. That distinctive opening chord sequence also opens The Beatles' I am the Walrus, which is what I thought might have influenced Kanno since her track is so Beatles-esque (and of course Brian Wilson and the Beatles are massive influences on Wondermints), but the piano voicings and contour of the vocal in the Wondermints song really do have an eerie resemblance to Nowhere and Everywhere specifically. Who knows, maybe Darien Sahanaja is actually a Kanno fan. Fortunately, the resemblance between the two isn't strong enough to prevent me from enjoying the hell out of both songs.

Bad Dog, No Biscuit- I'm at a loss. I didn't confuse titles this time, I seem to have made one up. I don't even know where the hell I got New Orleans Instrumental from. I mean, I could have just checked my CD case for the title, but I prefer to wing these things obviously. In any case, yes, the Tom Waits track is "Midtown (instrumental)". Anyway, you can hear in Midtown the specific rhythm pattern and same initial melody from Bad Dog, No Biscuit. Of course BDNB is much longer and more elaborate.

Pot City- For what it's worth, this one was pointed out to me by 2 friends a few years ago, but after listening to it, I thought they were right. Dub is one of the few genres I'm not very familiar with, so I don't have a sense of what the conventions are. The similarities I hear are in the identical rhythm pattern, tempo, psychedelic guitar effects, and bassline motion. The overall "mood" struck me as extremely similar to Dub Driving. If these are all characteristic of dub as a whole, then I suppose Kanno would just be emulating those features, but I really think she had this track in mind. But I'm not at all saying it's a "rip off", certainly no grounds for a lawsuit here. Just a track I think Kanno loosely patterned her own after.

Cosmic Dare- Actually, Overload was released as a single in August 2000, nearly a year before the Ask DNA EP came out, so Kanno probably heard it earlier.

[misssakura]

Okay earl, the reason that i'm singling Yoko out, is because she is one of the most prolific song writers of all time, as far as i'm aware she has written more songs than the beatles. However, we know hardly anything about her. She never really divulges much on her process except for "yes I thought of a song and it was good *laughs*". For somebody who has written well over 600 songs, it seems from her attitude that she has done everything single-handedly, when that is not the case. I would like her to come out of her shell a bit, really talk about the process and the people involved, really let the people who buy her music what is going on, thats the most interesting part! Especially now since its obvious that she does use a lot of "templates" for her songs, from existing songs, it would be nice to not just see her as a "GOD" but a real person. Yes this is a personal preference....I'm sure lots of people don't give a toss, i'm sure lots of people don't care whether she does interviews etc. But for me, when I heard Yoko I stopped writing, I felt I could never do everything she did. I read interviews and she seemed to indicate that she had no help whatsoever. I stopped writing because I could never be a god like her. So maybe this is why i'm more interested in her process than most people. its not harming her is it? I know nothing will change but its still the way I feel.

Because right now she does make herself out to be "superhuman". This one woman who came from nowhere, who taught herself piano, who seemingly didn't have any parents or childhood, who suddenly burst onto the music scene having written a whole score by herself, who then singlehandedly becomes the most prolific composer of all time. See where i'm driving to? With as many songs as she has, her process MUST be more interesting than she makes out.

You asked what is different with Yuki, well I guess Yuki has written not that many songs, but she freely talks about her struggle to learn music, her background, what equipment she uses, the team around her, and all her songs without exception have her trademark sound.....so I guess you can go "oh thats a yuki piece!". I guess i'm a fan of that, which is why I said I liked the Gabriela Robin pieces best.

Also

but this is not the same thing as accepting assistance in the actual process of composing

I'm sure Yoko collaborates though.  I never said there was anything particularly wrong about it, but i'm always disappointed when I read an interview, she seems to give a general non detailed answer, then laugh....maybe thats what it is. I'm just disappointed by the lack of source material, like its a big hush-hush operation. I'd love to know more about the process.....because i'm more of a technical listener than an emotional listener.


edit: so many typos o_o

[djsilt]

>>Cosmic Dare/Sugababes - "Overload"

I absolutely agree with you on this, but did you realize that "Overload" was released a mere 29 days before "Cosmic Dare" was? That's some quick work!

if it's correct that it is only 29 days before, that means that it is really a coincidence because and especially for anime, the music is composed one or two years before the release so it really can't be a rip off 

just listen to it ... ok the bass and rhythm are similar but that's all and it's a very ordinary beat ... so i'm not convinced    and Cosmic Dare is a million better 


--->
Call Me, Call Me --> The Verve “Bittersweet Symphony”

....  nothing similar 

[misssakura]

There are two possibilities with this....

1) The sugababes released overload as their first single, as one of their first songs. This was about a year before they released it. This demo would have been shipped around to all the major record labels, it is possible that grandfunk somehow had a copy.

2) The more likely explaination, Yoko and the sugababes most likely used the same sample disk. They have preset drum beats and bass riffs that most likely just got loaded into the computer.

However it doesn't explain how both songs have the same structure, like with the loud drums in the middle, the same verse drums, the same vocal structure....how odd! So I  did some checking. Overload was released : " Overload  ~Sugababes (Artist)
Wea International (Audio CD) - November 6, 2000 "

The pre-release was  Overload  ~Sugababes
London (Audio CD) - August 28, 2000

You guys looked on amazon.com, at the "one touch" album, which was a later release including the song. Sugababes changed management a while later and released overload on the one touch album after they gained recognition. Overload was released a lot earlier.....Almost a year earlier. Which would explain how Yoko had heard it.

Hope that helps 

[DJMc]

Call Me, Call Me- I don't agree with that Googoo Dolls comparison at all either, but I didn't suggest that one. That's interesting about the Rolling Stones connection, can't believe I never heard the song the strings part is from. Do you know which one it is?

It's actually from an obscure 1966 album called "The Rolling Stones Songbook", which contains an orchestra reworking RS songs. The song is "The Last Time".

Yo Pumpkin Head- Yeah, it's specifically the Lou Bega remix/cover to which Pumpkin Head bears similarities. Not for the melody, which is indeed different, but for the beat and synth parts. It's not a damning rip off or anything, but I think Kanno had definitely heard the song. I didn't want to suggest with the list I posted that all those songs were "ripped off" by Kanno. A few are egregious rips, but in most cases, there's a borrowing of certain melodic, rhythmic or tonal elements that are clearly linkable to the earlier songs, but fitted into new, original song structures. It's just the few outrageous rips that really sour me. 

Ah, I just assumed it was the original Mambo #5 you were talking about.

Ask DNA- One day, I will learn the joys of proof reading. Devil's Haircut, what's wrong with me. What I meant of course was "Where It's At", also from Odelay, which has an identical keyboard and rhythm riff to Ask DNA. (And yeah, there's a similar riff in the Wondermints song) That's what I get for not double-checking.
Yeah, isn't "Listen" a weird one? No dispute that that came out well after Nowhere and Everywhere. That distinctive opening chord sequence also opens The Beatles' I am the Walrus, which is what I thought might have influenced Kanno since her track is so Beatles-esque (and of course Brian Wilson and the Beatles are massive influences on Wondermints), but the piano voicings and contour of the vocal in the Wondermints song really do have an eerie resemblance to Nowhere and Everywhere specifically. Who knows, maybe Darien Sahanaja is actually a Kanno fan. Fortunately, the resemblance between the two isn't strong enough to prevent me from enjoying the hell out of both songs.

Ah, I see that "Where It's At" is indeed similar to "Ask DNA", but not quite identical. So you're a Wondermints fan? I really have to wonder if they are inspired at all by Yoko Kanno, it's hard to say for sure.

Bad Dog, No Biscuit- I'm at a loss. I didn't confuse titles this time, I seem to have made one up. I don't even know where the hell I got New Orleans Instrumental from. I mean, I could have just checked my CD case for the title, but I prefer to wing these things obviously. In any case, yes, the Tom Waits track is "Midtown (instrumental)". Anyway, you can hear in Midtown the specific rhythm pattern and same initial melody from Bad Dog, No Biscuit. Of course BDNB is much longer and more elaborate.

Yeah, actually, now that I've listened to them again I'd say that melody near the beginning is almost the same.

Pot City- For what it's worth, this one was pointed out to me by 2 friends a few years ago, but after listening to it, I thought they were right. Dub is one of the few genres I'm not very familiar with, so I don't have a sense of what the conventions are. The similarities I hear are in the identical rhythm pattern, tempo, psychedelic guitar effects, and bassline motion. The overall "mood" struck me as extremely similar to Dub Driving. If these are all characteristic of dub as a whole, then I suppose Kanno would just be emulating those features, but I really think she had this track in mind. But I'm not at all saying it's a "rip off", certainly no grounds for a lawsuit here. Just a track I think Kanno loosely patterned her own after. 

I haven't heard much dub, but I don't think it's that varied a genre. "Pot City" and "Dub Driving" have some similarities, especially the rhythm, so you may be right. There's a lot of dub out there though, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was something else she was inspired by.

Cosmic Dare- Actually, Overload was released as a single in August 2000, nearly a year before the Ask DNA EP came out, so Kanno probably heard it earlier.

Ah, I was wondering if it was a single. I couldn't find any info on the AMG about that, where you did you find out about this?

[misssakura]

english version of amazon, fansites, also *is a fan*

[EarltheSneak]

Well, all I can say is that maybe you just haven't come across all the literature pertaining to Kanno that's out there. I've read her song-by-song comments for Escaflowne, SAC, and the Bebop show and movie, and she gives a great deal of credit and praise to the people she works with, usually at the expense of talking about herself. But there's always more there than "I thought of a song and it was good". There's a long list of composers whose working methods I'd love to know more about, but I can respect that that may not be something they're interested in discussing out of modesty or a genuine lack of interest in their own working process. I DO agree that Kanno's comments on her own music are surprisingly un-technical, and she always seems happier to relate a story connected to the production, talk about the singer, or describe what scene or character she wrote for, but this isn't uncommon behavior among musicians. Some are happy to do an analytical post-mortem of their work and break everything down, but others hate talking about their work and find it pointless to elaborate on. There's nothing shady about it. I suspect Kanno just isn't interested in how she writes her songs, or doesn't think readers would be. I'd love to get more technical detail out of her, but I definitely don't think she's got anything to hide. She's talked a lot about her childhood, her daily life, and her thoughts on music and art in her monthly Pokkarishita column in Newtype (how many other composers write monthly articles?). She's described many times the long road to getting her start in the industry, from Tetsu 100% to writing music for Koei, to finally getting a break with Macross Plus. And she wrote a deeply serious article decrying the social status of women composers in Japan. So I really don't know what more you could want from her as far as coming out of her shell? She's never made herself out to be superwoman, and seems to have no ego or self-consciousness at all. I'd have to say I know a lot more about her history than I do about most of my favorite composers, and a lot of them speak my language and live in my country. Of course, I'm not saying "How can you not know this!?", because little of this information is available in English and it's hard to track down. But I would suggest that you not be premature in stating that she hides herself away if you're not sure how much literature pertaining to her exists.
Also, you stopped writing because you thought Yoko was a god? Well, umm...I think you need to get over that then? Kanno's extremely talented, perhaps a genius, but not the greatest one to ever walk the earth. There's no reason at all you should stop writing just because someone else exists. If everyone gave into that, we'd all have stopped composing after Mozart.

I would like her to come out of her shell a bit, really talk about the process and the people involved, really let the people who buy her music what is going on, thats the most interesting part!

Is it? I would say the music is the most interesting part. A common refrain among composers reluctant to discuss their work is that they've said everything there is to say in their music. It's neat to know how a track was made, but it doesn't really add anything to its quality.

I'm sure Yoko collaborates though.  I never said there was anything particularly wrong about it, but i'm always disappointed when I read an interview, she seems to give a general non detailed answer, then laugh....maybe thats what it is. I'm just disappointed by the lack of source material, like its a big hush-hush operation. I'd love to know more about the process.....because i'm more of a technical listener than an emotional listener.

Well, what do you mean by collaborates? Are you saying you think she uses ghostwriters to help her? Because that's a serious accusation, and you'd need more evidence than just an assumption. On those cases where Kanno has composed a score with Mizoguchi, they're credited as such. I don't think Kanno is working with uncredited ghost writers to create her music; it wouldn't fit her profile at all, and ghostwriting seems to be a practice more commonly used in the US.
(I remember reading your post last night, too tired to respond, and you had something about you thought Kanno didn't even write her scores out, which I know isn't true, but you edited that out so I guess you didn't agree with that anymore?)

Honestly, it sounds like you might have a certain amount of envy towards Kanno because everything seems so easy for her, and so you'd like to think she's getting a lot of help that we don't know about. I think she isn't, because there have been even greater musical geniuses than her throughout time, and it's not implausible that she could do what she does. But you know, that shouldn't matter to you or impact you at all. If you have something to say with your own music, don't worry or think about how easy or hard it is for other people to communicate with their own craft. Everyone is different and has their own means of producing art. I wish it could only be as easy for me as it is for Kanno, but I accept that genius exists and I'm not part of its charter. It doesn't mean I (or you, or anyone) can't or shouldn't try to offer what they have, because even the geniuses can't say it all. I think it's really sad if someone gets discouraged from creating a thing of value because someone else down the street created something faster.

[misssakura]

""Well, what do you mean by collaborates? Are you saying you think she uses ghostwriters to help her? Because that's a serious accusation, and you'd need more evidence than just an assumption."

WTF?! How dare you! Not trying to pick a fight? Where the hell did that come from? i'm talking about HER MUSICIANS! Her co-producers....everything that shapes the final sound of the track! Sheesh! You're a musician right? Haven't you ever been in a situation where you think you have your track figured out, then somebody comes along and says "hey why don't you try this" and then you mess around until you get the sound you like? Again i'm not insulting her of being a criminal i'm trying to make her seem more human!

(I remember reading your post last night, too tired to respond, and you had something about you thought Kanno didn't even write her scores out, which I know isn't true, but you edited that out so I guess you didn't agree with that anymore?)

I never said she didn't write her scores out, obviously because you were tired you didn't read it properly. I said she doesn't always write out all the music, which was stated to me by a maaya fan when it came to Yoko Sheet music not being readily available, because apparently Yoko didn't always have the songs scored out. Mmmmkay? I edited it out because I couldn't find the post, but i'm sure it was somebody like Merri, the admin of maayas who stated this.

Yes I do have envy....I mean thats  a duh, right? Do you have a problem with that? Don't worry i'm not going to kill her! How does how I feel affect you? You've read literature, thats fine, i'm sorry that I can't speak fluent japanese, I didn't realise there was as much as that out there. Okay you know what, I take it all back. This is going nowhere.

Yoko never bases her songs off of others. She works single handedly. Everything she does is a god given talent. She could compose a whole song using her buttocks. Sheesh, the original post I made was defending her against people saying she had ripped off others, and now you've turned me into this bad-guy, who is somehow ripping her apart. I wasn't! I was saying personally, I would love to read more about her processes, etc, oh wtf, it doesn't matter. You're not going to read anything good in what I say.

P.s. I think the majority of Mozarts work runs into one another and is boring, overrated.

I think it's really sad if someone gets discouraged from creating a thing of value because someone else down the street created something faster.

its not a question of faster. Its a question of....I wish I had written that track..but I can't beacuse its already written....she has churned out every song that I would ever want to write. Mmkay?

Thank you for making me feel like crap. Ciao.

[misssakura]

Actually, i'm just going to summarise my initial post, just in case you've forgotten:

"I think its harsh to accuse Yoko of ripping off songs, but maybe it wouldn't happen if she didn't keep herself to herself so much".

I woudl appreciate it if somebody would translate all this extra yoko information for people to read.

[EarltheSneak]

WTF?! How dare you! Not trying to pick a fight? Where the hell did that come from? i'm talking about HER MUSICIANS! Her co-producers....everything that shapes the final sound of the track! Sheesh! You're a musician right? Haven't you ever been in a situation where you think you have your track figured out, then somebody comes along and says "hey why don't you try this" and then you mess around until you get the sound you like? Again i'm not insulting her of being a criminal i'm trying to make her seem more human!

Jay-sus man, chill the hell out. "How dare" I what? I was trying to be civil and conciliatory, but you seem determined to get personally offended by my asking you for more precision in your claims. Enjoy it if you like.
The word you used was "collaborates", and if we're speaking of compositional collaboration (which I assumed we were, because your point was that Kanno shouldn't be able to do produce everything she does), this implies a mutual degree of creative surrender or deferral on the part of the individuals in the partnership towards each other. If someone listens to a track I've written and says "I'd like you to change this melody here a little", or "Maybe you should add some more percussion there", that does not make them my collaborator. If a violinist looks at a passage I've written and says "I think this should be played legato", and I agree, that does not make them my collaborator. These are things that can and will happen with any composer's work along the production process; Kanno is no different from anyone, and she's never pretended to be. So again, I find Kanno's being singled out here peculiar

Yes I do have envy....I mean thats  a duh, right? Do you have a problem with that? Don't worry i'm not going to kill her! How does how I feel affect you?

It doesn't affect me. You made some claims and speculations on a public board which I questioned and asked for clarification on. Then you got angry and offended. If you can't be challenged to better articulate your viewpoint without getting pissed off, then why are you posting on a public board? So much for debate.

I never said she didn't write her scores out, obviously because you were tired you didn't read it properly. I said she doesn't always write out all the music, which was stated to me by a maaya fan when it came to Yoko Sheet music not being readily available, because apparently Yoko didn't always have the songs scored out. Mmmmkay? I edited it out because I couldn't find the post, but i'm sure it was somebody like Merri, the admin of maayas who stated this.

Kanno sheet music isn't available because no publishing company has decided there's enough profit in it to sell scores of her music. Whether or not Kanno actually wrote down a note of music for a song or not is irrelevant to whether a score book would be brought out if someone concluded it was worth it. Bookstore sheet music sections are full of scores for pop songs written by people who couldn't read music. If the score's not available, someone transcribes it by ear; Kanno's original charts weren't even the ones used for the Cowboy Bebop band scorebook. So saying "there's no sheet music out there so she must not have written any" is a... bizarre chain of logic for someone to come up with.

P.s. I think the majority of Mozarts work runs into one another and is boring, overrated.

Maybe you'll realize otherwise, someday.

its not a question of faster. Its a question of....I wish I had written that track..but I can't beacuse its already written....she has churned out every song that I would ever want to write. Mmkay?

Thank you for making me feel like crap. Ciao.

Right, I made you feel like crap. You entirely missed the point of my message, but I'm not going to waste any more of my time explaining how. Feel what you want to feel. But that's some seriously unhealthy envy.

[misssakura]

Okay, you're right, last night I overreacted. I had a lot going on, and when you twisted a few things that I said, it annoyed me. I know i'm not the most eloquent of people, no budding Oscar Wilde, but it did seem that you missed my entire point of not being against Yoko.

I mean I started this thread...not for people to start insulting Yoko, but just to share her influences, I mean I never go out looking to find songs she has used as templates. but then people start throwing around words like "ripping off" and "stealing", which is really not what I intended.

This got turned into something which was totally the opposite direction of the initial post, perhaps my fault, i'm a little hot headed, but I get very frustrated on the internet never seeming to be able to make my point, being misinterpreted sometimes, leaving out major points and then having to babble on in later posts trying to make that point after its out of context.

I apologise for my behaviour, but still what I say stands, even if it wasn't phrased in the best way possible. I'm not ever going to throw around words like "ripped off" and thief at Yoko.  Its her job to write soundtracks, there is no way she could have written so many songs without looking at others for inspiration. There are few artists who manage true originality, Peter Gabriel, Bjork, a few Martin Grech songs perhaps. And then Gabriela Robin. 

To me, you can only throw around words such as ripped off, if you see the person as some of Super-god, and those words are intended to bring her down. Well she is a normal person, and yes I really wish I could have written about 100 of her songs, because I think they are brilliant, and I feel sad that myself, i'll never be able to write "blue" or "chorale" or "space lion" to name just a tiny handful. Yes I can enjoy them but it still doesn't make me feel any better knowing those songs are already taken and that they're not mine.

Earl: Like I said, I never asked you to retract anything. But you did twist my words in a few places, and in some ways you kept on doing it , even in that last post. For example "So saying "there's no sheet music out there so she must not have written any"". Putting words in my mouth, and Merri's mouth. Never said that she didn't write any, but there are some songs which she most likely notes down as rough format, more for the pop songs like Shounen Alice, then its more a question of working one to one with the studio musicians and Maaya to figure out the phrasing, the exact rhythms etc. Nothing wrong with it, again. There aren't many musicians who write complete scores for every single song they do.....we already know she wrote complete scores for Escaflowne because Anthony Inglis was in all praise of them.


I guess I was just trying to make Yoko seem more human. Would "want it all back" be as great if you had Gabriela Robin singing "vai chet das noogle google bloogle"? Probably not.....would Idol Talk be as good without Samply red's beats? Probably not.....

Okay I think i've rambled on for long enough now....and this is the end right? I overreacted to what you said, and you misread a few things that I said. But hopefully some people got some interesting perspective out of our debate and will think twice about accusing Yoko of being a thief or a fraud, because I certainly never used that language towards her and don't intend to.

And again, I was wondering if there was any way of translating all this extra material that has been kept in Japanese for all this time. I geuss I was wrong in assuming that because Yoko Kanno was so popular, that it would be translated....I would be really interested to read it.

Okidoke, ciao 
(oh and about mozart.....don't get me wrong, I love a few of his pieces, I think its amazing how he was about to play music at such a young age, and compose it....but there are a lot of songs I find to be overrated, just my personal opinion, but i'd rather listen to somebody like Debussy or Vivaldi for the most part, although his big choral works were fantastic)

[josh]

I'd like to add Nojazz's "Jungle-Out" in one corner, VS Yoko Kanno's "Ride on Technology". Now duel songs! Duel away!

It's very[i/i] obvious that "Ride on Technology" is based on "Jungle-Out", but "ROT" takes its own directions, with the melody going upward in certain spots and the fact that it's a cleaner arrangement... Nevertheless....yeah. It's a challenge to find the original song, and it's kinda cool -yet disturbing and depressing all at the same time. That made no sense, I apologize.

[mike_s_6]

BTW I think the comparison between CMCM and Iris by the Goo Goo Dolls is way off base. They are both soft rock songs with an acoustic guitar, but the similarities end there.

BTW,  I said that Call Me reminds me of Iris. I didn't even proceed to make a single comparison.

[josh]

Wow - I've had this Jazz Brakes vol 4 CD for a couple months now and I can't believe I didn't recognize this before!

DJ Food's "Funkativity" and Sydney Thiam's "Give and Take".... wow. Kanno even uses a warped sample of "Funkativity" in the way beginning of "G&T". The two use the soundclips, the impossible-to-pin-down French, and a remarkably similar beat. It's not quite as shocking as the "Mushroom Hunting Incident", but still...wow...

[misssakura]

If I made an anime, I think i'd listen to the type of music I wanted, then hand it over to the musical director (if I didn't do the music myself), and say "i want something like this". So you'd get a lot of similarities. Probably the same for Yoko. I'm amazed at how people find similar songs though....i've only found a handful of popular songs, considering how many songs are out there its quite remarkable to find the sources of inspiration (supposedly)

[EarltheSneak]

Good catches Archangel...man, that's brazen. Give and Take has the exact same beat, horn hits and bassline as Funkativity. The only thing Kanno seems to have added was the chorus. I just don't understand how DJ Food could be okay with Kanno passing off two of their tracks as her own compositions. And argh, Ride On Technology was my favorite track on GITS OST 2, and now it...can't be.    That one's not quite as bad, she does eventually take the piece in a different direction, but still, that's just flagrant plagiarism. Did she really have to copy the bassline exactly? This is so disappointing...

Didn't you say there was a song that sounded a lot like "Some Other Time"? (One of my favorite of all her vocals, so I *hope* not, but...)

[josh]

Good catches Archangel...man, that's brazen. Give and Take has the exact same beat, horn hits and bassline as Funkativity. The only thing Kanno seems to have added was the chorus. I just don't understand how DJ Food could be okay with Kanno passing off two of their tracks as her own compositions. And argh, Ride On Technology was my favorite track on GITS OST 2, and now it...can't be.    That one's not quite as bad, she does eventually take the piece in a different direction, but still, that's just flagrant plagiarism. Did she really have to copy the bassline exactly? This is so disappointing...

Didn't you say there was a song that sounded a lot like "Some Other Time"? (One of my favorite of all her vocals, so I *hope* not, but...)

Thanks for the congrats, I think... It's not really such a cool thing though. :/

And yeah - but I could just be mistaken. It's in a very U2 style, so that could just be all. Seeing as I don't listen to them all that much, I really don't remember. I hope not too..."Some Other Time" is a very good song.

[seba_boi]

Wolf's rain, Cloud 9 -----> Une héroîne by Laurent Voulzy
It's exactly the same   :

Holy Crap!!!! You're absolutely right!!!! And I love Cloud 9 ever so much!!! I actually like the Sakamoto version cuz of the chorus... Could it be an adaptation?....

[CiscoMatisse]

Mayeb Yoko is someone who looks at old songs, and remakes them until they're perfect. 

As for all the discrepancies with giving credit, it's very common, but I don't think it's Kanno's fault.  I've heard a lot of people say stuff like "Yoko Kanno did the Ghost In the Shell Soundtrack", simply because they don't know better.  In a lot of anime featuring her music, the people just put "Music composed by Yoko Kanno", when not all of it is.  I don't know why, but I really doubt she does that stuff on purpose.  It could just be that it's easier to put one solid name instead of pages of names, especially in TV shows where time constraints control everything.  Plus, the notoreity that follows Yoko Kanno's name is more than enough.  If the person is really interested, they're obviously going to be interested in the poeple who work with her.

[orioto]

Hi to all !
I discovered this board today and I just wanted to say that a topic like this one is a gift from god. That's
really fascinating for a guy like me who hasn't enough music knowledge to see what's Original or not in Yoko's Work.

But the thing that interested me the most is the chat with missakura and particularly aboutthe "mystification"
of Kanno. I think that the important point in this problem is that Kanno IS somewhat a "special" person in
the history of music, by the quantity, at least. So those questions about the exact nature of her work and her merits have to be asked. It's curious that Kanno can be strangly compared to a guy who is, many times more than her, questionable about his real true talent. i'm of course speaking about Nobuo uematsu. I think Those two poeple are wihtout a doubt the most passionatly loved composers in our domain, or even in our generation. The thing they have in common is that they use existent materials to give more effectiveness to their work. But we can't compare them to doped sportmen that cheat people for their own sake. Because there is some kind of generosity in their actions.

Anyway, i'm french, tired and not really good in english, so i'm not sure you will understand my point, or even if i have one^^

To finish i just wanted to say that when i discover how far the "borrowness" of kanno goes, it make me wonder one only thing. Know that we begin to know what is weak in her, shouldn't we be more accurate to see what is so strong ? I mean ok, let's take away from her all that is from someone else. What's left in ? This sensibility that run along all her works, that make us easily recognize her in a song, whatever its influence. I don't think there is just technicitie left. The eal think that i personnaly like isn't versaitlity of sophistication of
her work. It's her way to express strong and subtle feeling with any existent musical ressource. i don't mind
if she take something from the beattles to make a genious song. The thing that matter the most is that she
translate a situation with her own sensibility and bring so much value to it? I think that's why she is, in my
opinion, the best movie compose of all time. That's just a question sensibility. I mean, let's finish with some
poetry i you deosn't mind. We could say that whatever the style she uses or the artist she borrows from, her heart is always the same ans unaltered. Kanno is all except a cold replay machine, and a references topic like this one is great to a die hard fan like me because it helps me to better know the miss. by knowing what she don't do, i can know what she do, and that's this last thing i'm looking for.

Mhh so long, scuse me
So so so, in a word, Missakura, you were a little awkward with some ideas but i totally agree with you on this
need of transparency about her

(ps: I would dream about the same topic for uematsu in an other forum. That's would be so  fun.)

[roger343]

I agree with orioto. She doesn't just copy the music, she also adds something new. And she's also able to touch me with her music, her musical work covers much types of feelings.
Nowadays there are so much songs that have already been written. So it happens very fast that you "copy" a song. I remember that I've written a song and a friend of mine told me that one part of the song already existed, but I didn't know this song when I've written my own song. So I think that you have to create a new music style if you want to have a unique song.

[tlsmith1963]

Everyone has influences, & nothing is really original anymore.  What I love about YK is that she reminded this cynical music fan of what I loved most about music when I was younger.  In this world of monotonous dance-music & toned-down punk rock, it's nice to hear some music that actually sounds great.

Tammy
Who Prefers "Classic" Punk & Dance Music

[seba_boi]

I agree with orioto.

I think everyone here would too... If you think about it:

violins in Dance Of Curse = Psycho Theme by Bernard Herrman
Doggy Dog II = Pulp Fiction opening music
Artisan = Greensleeves

But about the song Cloud 9=Une Heroine... It's pretty much the same exact song translated to Japanese... If it's the case, Yoko Kanno can't be credited to composing this one though...

[mike_s_6]

I wanted to say something about Kanno's "mystification". I don't think it's her intention to make things about her mystical, except for the Gabriela Robin part. Just recall that Kanno is Japanese and she lives in a society that hasn't fully accepted the emancipation of women. While the West and Westernized countries have treated the sexes as equals for a long time, it's relatively new in Japan.


Down to the point. Women in Japan, especially during the time that Kanno lived her childhood, are discriminated and have been kept under the shadows of their male counterparts. When exactly did Kanno become popular? When her works for animations (a popular Japanese export, by the way), got acclaim in Western countries. I was a little surprised when she wrote that article about being a woman composer in Japan, cause I thought that by now it should have been better.


But I think that she has more fans now.

[tlsmith1963]

When I had the online translator translate Wanna Be a Wind recently, I noticed that they seemed to be saying that they hoped Kanno would become more popular because of her recent works.  I guess she isn't as popular in Japan as I thought.

Also, on the BBS there they mentioned the Gabriela Robin site that Mike S6 has (even had a link).  I guess they know about the site in Japan now.

Tammy

[mike_s_6]

OT: I saw that link because they have this "most visited site before yours" report in geocities. >< The Wanna be Wind site is ON TOP. Too bad I can't read Japanese, and the translation engines aren't too good either.

[EarltheSneak]

This one had been bugging me for a while, and I finally located it.  I knew I had heard the opening of the melody in "Beyond Me" from Wolf's Rain OST 2 before, but couldn't remember where. I was listening to my copy of Patrick Doyle's Henry V score the other night, and there it was, "The Death of Falstaff". Kanno only quotes the first half of the melody and develops the rest of the track in a different direction, so it's not a long-term rip off, but she'd clearly been listening to this score. She had to have been, because when I reached the track "Upon the King", I realized that the first 45 seconds of it are where Kanno took "Indiana" on WR2 from.  It's bizarre how she'll copy multiple tracks from the same CD on a single album (like with Craig Armstrong and Frou Frou). She must be a fan of Doyle, as she also kind of ripped off one of his cues from Sense and Sensibility for Napple Tale.

Anyway, I've also solved the mystery of Moca's Clarke-Boland and "Two Things" from The Other Side of Midnight. The riff that appears in the Moca track is a sample from an original Clarke-Boland big band recording, "Un Grao De Areia", from the Latin Kaleidoscope suite, written by Gary McFarland. Kanno seriously "borrowed" from this piece, and while it's not a straight rip, I'd have to put it in the category of tracks that cut too close to source for comfort.

And one more, not particularly egregious one I recently discovered: the first half of "Shrilly" from Escaflowne OST 3 (before the Indiana Jones strings come in), is based on Bela Bartok's Romanian Folk Dance No. 3

Now for a curious similarity I'm not sure what to make of. I just saw the brilliant movie Sideways, and noticed a recurring piano cue in the score that had a very strong resemblance to the solo piano theme at the beginning of "Rakuen" and "Paradiso" from Wolf's Rain 1; certainly too close and too structurally protracted to be coincidental. Of course Sideways just came out, so I thought maybe this was the first actual case of someone else (in this case composer Rolfe Kent) borrowing from Kanno...but after listening to the whole soundtrack album, I found that this cue wasn't on it. And the film credits listed a great deal of licensed music. So either this cue was an original composition that was not included on the score album, or it's an older piece of music that Kanno again borrowed from. But I have no idea what it could possibly be. Anyway, if anyone else sees this movie, they should keep an ear out...

As for the argument that all composers steal, well yes, to an extent this is true. And most of the time, Kanno's incorporation of elements recognizable from other composers' styles is a valid and common expression of influence; but concerted plagiarism is a different thing entirely. There is no excuse for it, and Kanno has regrettably crossed that line more than a few times, with tracks like Mushroom Hunting, Want It All Back, Cloud 9, Face On, Ride On Technology, and Give and Take, which are unapologetically note-for-note thefts of complete songs by other artists with a couple surface tweaks. It's extraordinarily intellectually dishonest to copy someone else's work to this extent and profit from it, and to be honest, I've never heard anyone else who's done it as frequently as she has (and gotten away with it). I still love Kanno, because when she's not doing this, her music is a thing of brilliance and beauty, but I cannot ignore these liberal lifts, and it has really started to interfere with my respect for her. I just hope somehow someone calls her attention to what she's doing and she stops...

On the other hand...how does Artisan = Greensleeves? I completely disagree with that...
Doggy Dogg II certainly owes something to the Dick Dale track that kicks off Pulp Fiction, but I felt this was an intentional and legitimate, tongue-in-cheek reference by Kanno to the surf music genre, and not the kind of furtive plagiarism that's so ethically distasteful.

[orioto]

The most curious thing in all this story is how she tell that she never listen music because of the influence it could make on her. The same thing with her telling that she deosn't like jazz (for bebop) and acting as a kind of free and naive spirit...